Curse

killerbot3009 · Mar 07, 2011, 11:43 PM // 23:43

yeah its not really working is it lol, the only reason i go there is if i want to go from the GH to somewhere undecided yet lol. sometimes i am just in the mood for random stuff so i go to the first NPC i can find to take me away from the place

also is there anywhere else to get the ZVq?

Skyy High · Mar 07, 2011, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalia

im still a bit unclear on why EB is considered a better option for group to get through a specific mission than simply traveling to that mission and grouping with someone in that specific zone

It's really mainly supposed to be for people who are either title hunting or just screwing around to find a PUG, where you don't really care what mission or vanquish you are going to do in particular, but you want to do something in Cantha, for example.

Qing Guang · Mar 08, 2011, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I think a major part of the problem is that a large portion of the playerbase just isn't that social. If you give them a way to do pretty much everything without ever grouping with another player, they won't. And that's pretty much what ANet's done.

Consider the joy over 7hero, and consider before that how many people simply refused to PUG altogether. Part of that was because a reasonable number of people in PUGs were indeed pretty incompetent, but not nearly as many as the anti-PUGgers would think (as an avid PUGger and tired healer, I would know - you really only would get one bad apple every couple of mishes, in my experience). Before I got Nightfall (and heroes of my own), it was the bane of my existence trying to level through Factions as NO ONE was there, and those few that were would just H/H it all.

It's probably part of the game itself. What was one of the draws of Guild Wars? That everything was instanced... no competition for kills and resources, but also no random interaction with other players in the field. Just as with its pricing scheme, it's a glorified singleplayer game - one that happens to include a chatroom (towns), very basic economy, optional PvP, and the chance to get help with something if you are struggling alone.

Now, with 7hero, unless they're very new/don't have all the campaigns, chances are people aren't going to be struggling with very much... thus, very few people (except for people like me who actually *gasp!* enjoy the company of random strangers while gaming) choose to group with other players (and when they do, they call on their guildies first, not somebody of unknown skill).

TLDR: If ANet lets solo players be equal to groups of players, PUGs will wither, because Guild Wars players are antisocial/distrust each other/don't have the time to form groups/are more inclined towards singleplayer.

Improvavel · Mar 08, 2011, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qing Guang

I think a major part of the problem is that a large portion of the playerbase just isn't that social. If you give them a way to do pretty much everything without ever grouping with another player, they won't. And that's pretty much what ANet's done.

Consider the joy over 7hero, and consider before that how many people simply refused to PUG altogether. Part of that was because a reasonable number of people in PUGs were indeed pretty incompetent, but not nearly as many as the anti-PUGgers would think (as an avid PUGger and tired healer, I would know - you really only would get one bad apple every couple of mishes, in my experience). Before I got Nightfall (and heroes of my own), it was the bane of my existence trying to level through Factions as NO ONE was there, and those few that were would just H/H it all.

It's probably part of the game itself. What was one of the draws of Guild Wars? That everything was instanced... no competition for kills and resources, but also no random interaction with other players in the field. Just as with its pricing scheme, it's a glorified singleplayer game - one that happens to include a chatroom (towns), very basic economy, optional PvP, and the chance to get help with something if you are struggling alone.

Now, with 7hero, unless they're very new/don't have all the campaigns, chances are people aren't going to be struggling with very much... thus, very few people (except for people like me who actually *gasp!* enjoy the company of random strangers while gaming) choose to group with other players (and when they do, they call on their guildies first, not somebody of unknown skill).

TLDR: If ANet lets solo players be equal to groups of players, PUGs will wither, because Guild Wars players are antisocial/distrust each other/don't have the time to form groups/are more inclined towards singleplayer.

I on the other hand assisted to an interesting phenomenon - players that hadn't played at all or hardly at all, in a few cases for 1 and even 2 years, just bam, came back.

And they keep coming. And they are doing stuff. And they sound happy on guild/alliance chat.

The fact is Guild Wars is quite an unique game, with a team system where people/Ai need to work as a team and fill different roles and really fast immersing combat.

I don't know of something similar to it, that does it all as well as Guild Wars do.

As you've said, even severely gimped, some people preferred to play alone. The only way you can stop those people from playing alone is removing the option to play alone altogether - and then they leave the game.

Look at DoA, Urgoz, The Deep, places that were impossible to do alone before (some still are) - were they packed full of people pugging?

How many pugs formed there (and UW and Fow) that weren't using some metaway build to Speed Clear or whatnot?

With 7 heroes pugging stays the same. On the other hand, single player guild wars become a much more interesting game.

Sure - farming/speed clear guilds and players lost some power over the game economy. Even at slower speeds, due to sheer numbers, solo players that produced 0 UW/FoW chests, DoA gemstones, etc, will output items that will compete with SC guilds/players.

Urcscumug · Mar 08, 2011, 09:39 AM // 09:39

It's the age of the casual gamer. Game companies have caught on to the fact there's vastly more casual gamers out there than hardcore.

For ANet is much more profitable to design a game which can be played alone and how much or how little you want, without any penalty for not being there at certain times or with a certain frequency. This opens it up for literally all kinds of people.

I've met lots of people in game that treated it like a sort of glorified Yahoo Environment. Some of them unlock access to major outposts and then just stand around and chat or do stuff solely so they can get pretty outfits and dyes so they can stand around and chat looking cool.

I've met people who've never left Pre. As in never made another char, never seen anything else in the game, they just have one char and it's a perma Pre. They play Pre, they farm stuff, they do trade, they chat, they have Pre-only guilds.

Crazy, right? But so what?

If GW stands for anything, it's "play the game your way".

This allows ANet to be wealthy and have a viable business model, which means first of all continued upkeep for GW, and secondly cool stuff like GW2. So I can't say I'm sad because of it, quite the opposite.

Besides, it's not like you can't get people to play through something period. You can still get PUG's, or join or start a guild.

And there's a bit of subliminal hypocrisy or selective blindness at work here, IMHO. I think people tend to forget what it was like to be new to the game. They were most likely shy and/or didn't know how to work the chat and party controls. You have to insist a bit to find a PUG in newb areas but it can be done.

And then there's newbs who manage to speak up and ask "can anybody help?" only to be ignored, their plea drowned in local or trade chat, and they never speak again... how many of us remember casually glancing over those chat lines and not moving a finger? Yet we come to the forums and say "hey, nobody's doing PUGs".

How does a PUG start?

MithranArkanere · Mar 08, 2011, 10:02 AM // 10:02

A PUG starts when one of those that is expecting to be invited by a party with 4/8 or more people gets fed up, and starts inviting the 1/8 guys.

Skyy High · Mar 08, 2011, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qing Guang

I think a major part of the problem is that a large portion of the playerbase just isn't that social. If you give them a way to do pretty much everything without ever grouping with another player, they won't. And that's pretty much what ANet's done.

Consider the joy over 7hero, and consider before that how many people simply refused to PUG altogether. Part of that was because a reasonable number of people in PUGs were indeed pretty incompetent, but not nearly as many as the anti-PUGgers would think (as an avid PUGger and tired healer, I would know - you really only would get one bad apple every couple of mishes, in my experience). Before I got Nightfall (and heroes of my own), it was the bane of my existence trying to level through Factions as NO ONE was there, and those few that were would just H/H it all.

It's probably part of the game itself. What was one of the draws of Guild Wars? That everything was instanced... no competition for kills and resources, but also no random interaction with other players in the field. Just as with its pricing scheme, it's a glorified singleplayer game - one that happens to include a chatroom (towns), very basic economy, optional PvP, and the chance to get help with something if you are struggling alone.

Now, with 7hero, unless they're very new/don't have all the campaigns, chances are people aren't going to be struggling with very much... thus, very few people (except for people like me who actually *gasp!* enjoy the company of random strangers while gaming) choose to group with other players (and when they do, they call on their guildies first, not somebody of unknown skill).

TLDR: If ANet lets solo players be equal to groups of players, PUGs will wither, because Guild Wars players are antisocial/distrust each other/don't have the time to form groups/are more inclined towards singleplayer.

By your own admission, people have been avoiding PUGs in favor of H/H for a long time. How exactly have 7 heroes changed anything?

Xiaquin · Mar 08, 2011, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

A PUG starts when one of those that is expecting to be invited by a party with 4/8 or more people gets fed up, and starts inviting the 1/8 guys.

Seems I'm not the only one that noticed from day one that very few people want to actually start/lead a party. ZM is the best-case scenario for PUGs, and 1/8s just sit there, but as soon as a 2/8 forms it gets bombarded with invites.

When the majority has the idea to wait for a group to get started, combined with the diversity of groups forming for just about anything, means people are even less likely to initiate. The system is designed for proactive players, and most of us are simply not, so EB is working against the grain here.

Bellatrixa · Mar 08, 2011, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

By your own admission, people have been avoiding PUGs in favor of H/H for a long time. How exactly have 7 heroes changed anything?

^ this. And might I add that some people might not be pugging as much lately due to the Survivor update? I'm sorry but I trust my heroes over pugs for keeping my Survivor title in tact. I've limited myself to guild/alliance parties where I've forewarned people I'm working on Survivor and done everything else with my heroes so I don't feel bad about bailing on a pug group if things start to get ugly.

-inb4box/vaettirfarm/kathhammerforsurvivor-

Malganis · Mar 08, 2011, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalia

im still a bit unclear on why EB is considered a better option for group to get through a specific mission than simply traveling to that mission and grouping with someone in that specific zone

I have 9 characters across all four campaigns. Only two of them have finished every mission. I go to Embark Beach regularly and scan the list to see if anyone is LFG for a mission that one of my chars also needs. If I had to go to every outpost in every campaign and LFG, it would take me all day and night.

I just wish the traders/spammers would stay out of Embark Beach and stick to Kamadan.

Yawgmoth · Mar 08, 2011, 07:08 PM // 19:08

I had my really big hopes for this, for years I kept saying that" "a centralized solution for grouping is the number 1 need of GW PvE" (a close 2nd was an automated trading system).

But at the same time I'm a great opponent of heroes and what they did to this game (Imho 3 was too much, the correct number per player should be 2 so they can just fill missing spots in parties not solo all pve).

For years I've been pugging a lot, in the ancient times and in the last 2 years thanks to ZQuests - they were a fantastic addition to the game that also enabled fast PuGging. But there was no ZQuests for Vanquishing nor a place to meet players wanting to do that. So I didn't go for the Vanquisher titles exactly because there were no pugs for them. I did like 20 areas with H+H, was easy but incredibly boring. Singleplayer GW

But right now, given the 7 heroes' power to pwnroll PvE (as imba as expected, mind=blown) and seeing how long it takes to make a party and seeing that almost the only players wanting to PuG now are those who don't have enough level20 skilled heroes or are just bad. I hate it but I'll be getting my legd vanq the unfun but fast way...

Conslusion: it's probably too late, now the only cure, PvE done right is GW2.

TheGizzy · Mar 08, 2011, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

But at the same time I'm a great opponent of heroes and what they did to this game (Imho 3 was too much, the correct number per player should be 2 so they can just fill missing spots in parties not solo all pve).

Ok, see this is what I don't get... and please understand, Yawgmoth, my comments are not directed at you specifically. I've seen similar comments several times, and on the whole, they baffle me.

Why the need to dictate how someone else is supposed to play the game? Why force someone into either playing the way you prefer (more people, less h/h) or have them not play at all?

I don't like PuGs. It doesn't fit my play style. I don't find them enjoyable in the least. Instead, I either play with H/H, play with my husband and best friend, or I play with people I've met and gotten to know through Guru. I actually had a lot of success with the latter. But standing around in ANY outpost and joining a group of players who have randomly come together...? For me there is no enjoyment in that. Were it a requirement for GW, I would not be playing. I would not have bought the game to begin with.

The only difference there would be right now if the parties were limited as you described is that there would be even FEWER people playing at all. People who dislike PuGs or dislike the WoW model of MMOs, simply wouldn't buy the game to begin with, or wouldn't stick with it once they got to the point where they couldn't solo it. There would not suddenly be more people available for you to PuG with.

Less people buying/playing means less financial resources for ANet to devote back into the game. It means fewer updates and no new content. It means stagnation.

By giving people the option to play their own way, ANet keeps a broader player base, a broader income. Instead of forcing people to play one way, or not play at all... they're providing options which are suitable for a much broader range of people. That keeps the game alive as a whole, maintains the potential for additional features, fixes and content.

People who like to PuG can, people who don't, won't. But ANet gets to keep both types, gets an income stream from both types. And that allows them to add content that may be of interest to both types and perhaps even attract new players along the way.

*lemming* · Mar 08, 2011, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

But standing around in ANY outpost and joining a group of players who have randomly come together...? For me there is no enjoyment in that. Were it a requirement for GW, I would not be playing. I would not have bought the game to begin with.

http://www.guildwiki.org/Henchman

afya · Mar 08, 2011, 09:34 PM // 21:34

I hoped EB works. I hoped there will be some SC groups for those less popular dungeon. But then I realise those SC group either already had some gether place, or they find people from those places that already got lots of SC people. And those who don't SC won't even bother finding companions, they just go with 7 heroes....

NerfHerder · Mar 08, 2011, 11:02 PM // 23:02

I dont think Embark Beach was supposed to make more people PuG. It was supposed to make grouping easier. A few things to keep in mind....

Everyone just got the chance to go for Survivor(again)/LDoA and use 7 heros. Even players that like to pug are probably out testing hero team builds and title farming.

Players are use to the old way of grouping. Go to Embark Beach and find the ZV for the day. You wont see many people LF ZV at Embark Beach. But, go to the outpost nearest the ZV zone and youll see plenty of players looking for a pug. So in that sense, it was a success at bringing pugs together.

They just made GW easier! So what? GW was already easy and did nothing to SCs, next.

Embark Beach is NOT the new trading outpost, nor is it filled with trading spam. In fact, Kamaden seems to be more popular than ever.

Give it another month or so before you call it a complete failure.

Asia Skyly · Mar 08, 2011, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Personally, I had the opportunity to join complete strangers for a variety of missions! I had a great time doing Hell's Precipice HM, helped someone with Varesh, did Gate of Pain with another group, etc.

It certainly has worked well for me! And I am not even counting the pugs I have gone VQing with! All started thanks to the Zaishen VQ!

Hooray for Anet! This was a great update!

Chico · Mar 08, 2011, 11:44 PM // 23:44

EB is a good idea but its implementation and execution is meh. It's simply too late for EB...

It's a shame is that the update is supposed to be about EB while for players this is the 7H update and ironically, IMO, not only 7H > EB, 7H actually kills EB.

I would have preferred the devs to spend their time in other features instead of EB but at least there's still plenty to explore with 7H before I look elsewhere.

Puebert · Mar 09, 2011, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

Oh, there is ONE bit of annoyance: the merchants of Embark beach don't sell sup. ID kits. Annoying.

THIS is my bigest problem with Embark Beach.

myths of fury · Mar 09, 2011, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Something I have noticed, since those missions and areas you are supposed to set sail to aren't all that high end, and with the arrival of 7 hero possibility, grouping with human players doesn't have as much of a need as before. The only novelty left to human players don't apply much for EB besides maybe the use of PvE skills, and they have recently decided to nerf quite a bit of them (BuH, Asuran Scan, Aura Of Holy Might...).

It's like all their latest updates have been giving us other (better) reasons not to use EB...

Cuilan · Mar 09, 2011, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

Why the need to dictate how someone else is supposed to play the game? Why force someone into either playing the way you prefer (more people, less h/h) or have them not play at all?

Less people buying/playing means less financial resources for Anet to devote back into the game.

By giving people the option to play their own way, ANet keeps a broader player base, a broader income. Instead of forcing people to play one way, or not play at all...

Henchman and heroes have been in the game forever and quite some time. So now that you have your seven heroes, wouldn't you say that it would be in your best interest if PUGs and groupings of people still existed? You said it yourself, people shouldn't be forced to play one way.